A Modest Ecclesiological Proposal

John Ahern writes,

I’m not going to be needlessly apologetic about this, but do understand that I neither claim this to be original nor do I claim this to be the prior idea of anyone else. I’m communicating ideas I happen to think are important, and they may be either too crazy to be the work of anyone else or too profound to be mine.

Yes, yet again, my attention is focused on that petty issue of ecclesiology. You’ll notice Christians often assume that Protestantism began as a completely new doctrinal strand of the 16th century, and was vaguely connected to the early Church. Somewhere along the way, however, at a vague point, Christians started doing papist stuff.

Or, to put it anecdotally, I was watching a lecture series by Anthony Rizzi, who is really quite excellent at presenting Thomism in a modern day application. One of the conclusions he came to gave me convulsions – he said that the Catholic Church was really the founder of modern science.

That’s true. There’s nothing wrong with that statement, as far as my own research and his oratory go. But the context he put it in makes us think of the Roman Catholic church, and this is really what makes me peeved. I’ve come across somewhat the same attitude in Philip Schaff.

Delve with me, if you would, into the meaning of the word Catholic. It means universal?—?something most people may be familiar with. I do wonder when Peter Kreeft, who does always have helpful insights into the issue, says we’re all small “c” Catholics. Does that help? Does it do anything aside from forming, blissfully and naively, some sort of ecumenical connection between Protestants and Roman Catholics?

Let’s look at the proper name of those under the headship of Rome. We call them Roman Catholics. That is to say, the Roman Catholic church is the Catholic church under the headship of Rome. I must beg all the Roman Catholics reading this to correct me if I’m wrong. This name, Roman Catholic, is an assertion (and one that I have no intention of trying to deny here) that the Catholic church is defined by Rome. Not sure if that’s a good way of putting it, but there it is.

Now, a Classical Protestant would acknowledge this – would further the point by saying that, actually, Protestants are Catholics too. Not small “c”. Capital “C”. We should consider ourselves within the visible bounds of the Catholic Church. It’s because we refuse to define the Church by Rome?—?indeed, by an institutionalized or infallible entity, other than the Word. If we really believe in sola Scriptura, this is premise with which to be begin. We are Protestant Catholics. (All thanks, Douglas Wilson.)

Post Israeli-split of 1st Kings 12, the story of Ruth did not exclude itself from being told to the children of the tribe of Reuben, just because it happened in Judah, and that wasn’t Israel. To put it in a mundane way, I, the Protestant, want in on the fun too.

The idea that Protestants of the Reformation were trying to suppress and confine the proper roll of the Church is really quite off the mark, I think. (Funny thing is it’s an idea probably originating with Protestants.) If what we say is true, and obviously, no good Roman Catholic could say it was, then the Protestant ecclesiology is much, much bigger and broader than anything defined by an infallible institution. I’m not trying to do Protestant apologetics here, either, but that’s something to understand about the nature of Protestantism.

Posted at 6:23 pm EST on the 3rd of January 2008 by John R. Ahern.

Under Theology as

There are 10 replies.
 
  1. Immortal Philosopher says on January 10th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    Well, John.

    Supposing first of all that by “Catholic” you mean in union with the universal body of members who believe in the doctrine thereof, then to assert that, although you deny two major doctrines (Tradition, and Papal supremacy) you are still part of said universal body. Unless you redefine Catholic, then this is a contradiction of terms.

    I’d glady accept you as Christian, and say that you were certainly far better off than some others, but you’re not quite Catholic.

    ~Ambrose

  2. Galadriel says on January 10th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    That was all very interesting, John, but I’m not quite sure what the actual “proposal” was. Are you?
    -Vicki

  3. John R. Ahern says on January 10th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    Let me mortify two swans with one pebble. (I hate cliches.)

    The modest proposal (I was low on imaginative titles, Vicki, and I had been reading too much Enlightenment stuff :-P) was a redefinition of Catholic. As I said, Ambrose, you define Catholicism by Tradition and Papal supremacy, and view these as major doctrine whose inconcordance with involves being outside of the Catholic Church, if I’m not mistaken.

    Protestants fundamentally as Protestants do not. It’s not that I’m proposing a new definition of Catholic, but that Protestantism itself is a new definition of Catholic, in that we don’t view the Catholic Church as defined by those two major doctrines.

    Now, that may have been more to-the-point and lucid than my entire post, but I do tend to be subconsciously cryptic. :-)

  4. John R. Ahern says on January 10th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    And allow me to restate, who knows if any Protestants even agree with my assessment of Protestantism. I suppose in reality I’m proposing an assessment of Protestantism as a redefinition of Catholicism.

    Whew.

  5. Immortal Philosopher says on January 10th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    John, it’s more than just those two doctrines. Christ’s true presence in the Eucharist, Sacramental Reconciliation…the list goes on. What Protestantism says is that a person can choose what he wishes to believe, yet still call himself as Christian/Catholic. This has gotten as far as Jehova’s Witnesses and Mormons, who deny Christ’s divinity, yet still claim to be Christian.

    If Catholicism is not defined by doctrine, then what is it defined by?

  6. Cosmo says on January 10th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    If what defines Catholicism is merely a list of ideas that we are to give approval to, I don’t see what use it is. Simply approving of an idea never benefited anyone.

  7. Galadriel says on January 11th, 2008 at 4:58 am

    I’m afraid my swan isn’t quite mortified, John. (I know; cliches are ancient chapeau.)

    Is the point of all that that Catholicism isn’t about doctrine but about whether or not you’re saved? That is, are you saying the Catholic is completely synonymous with Christian?

  8. John R. Ahern says on January 11th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    Well, Ambrose, I can’t argue with anything in your post because it’s all correct and true. Praise God, however, for your faulty definition of Protestantism, for I certainly couldn’t survive very long under it. :-P (Protestants do live up to it, though.)

    Classical Protestantism, and it’s not just myself that believes this, firmly believes in Ecclesiastical Authority – the Authority of Mother Church. I may not agree with everything my Presbytery dictates, but I eat the Spinach that Mother Church puts on my plate.

    If you’re wondering why Martin Luther didn’t do that, even Peter Kreeft admits that you can’t do that on matters of Salvation. If you truly believe that the Church is wrongly going about salvation, you’re talking about two different Gospels here – two different religions. That’s why Martin Luther had to break, not with the Catholic Church, but with Rome.

    I hope that makes it clear. Vicki, I can’t fully answer your question because I’m not sure. If one were to equate “Christian” with “saved”, then, not all that are saved are Catholic. I know that doesn’t answer your question, but I’ll read up. :P

    P. S. To be nit-picky, we do believe in the Real Presence. Just not transubstantiation.

  9. MisterT says on January 24th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    Hi Jack–
    As you know I’m not really a blogger but I was in the neighborhood so I thought I would pay a visit. It seems you all have things well in hand but I’ll offer a comment and a question.

    The term “real presence” has a specific meaning to Catholics/Orthodox–the substantial (body, blood, soul and divinity) presence of the second person of the Trinity in the Eucharist. For Protestants the term can have a range of meanings so I believe it is incumbent upon Catholics (Roman or otherwise) to articulate exactly what they mean when they use the expression in a group with diverse beliefs in order to avoid needless misunderstandings. In fact the term transubstantiation helps avoid misunderstanding altogether–precision of language.

    As for my question: Is the Greek Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church? ;-)

    Affectionately, Mr. T

  10. Matthew Warren Patrick Grote says on August 19th, 2008 at 2:02 am

    John,

    This is all very interesting, however I see some flawed logic in your argument, whether it be your argument or someone else’s. The Catholic Church is synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church for various reasons. 1. It was the first one. The Roman Catholic Church came first, as it was founded by Christ through St. Peter the first Pope. In a way, the Catholic Church is only truly Catholic when it is under Papal Rule. It is coincidence that the Papacy has been stationed in Rome for whatever reasons there were behind that, but in any case, the Catholic Church is under Papal Rule, and since the Papacy IS stationed in Rome, it is the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants had broken from the Church, and in an entirely non-offensive way do I say this, were the first heretics. This means they abandoned Catholicism and basically turned to their own ideas. “Lets throw this out, hmm… I think I’ll add this… ah, this is looking quite nice!” These protestants no longer belong to the same Universal body of Christians known as Catholic or Roman Catholic. They are no longer under Papal Rule. They simply are NOT Catholic. Furthermore, Catholics do not believe in “Sola Scriptura.” This is obvious due to the various changes and/or additions to the faith due to theological contemplation inspired by the Holy Spirit and apparitions envisioned by the Catholic Saints. The Church is very much defined from Protestant beliefs. Protestants will never be any form of “Catholic.” It is contradictory to their very existence. However, I will say one thing. Catholics and Protestants (although not the same) are not entirely too different. But they can never share the same title, other than that of “Christian.” =)

    ~ Matthew Grote