When you divide Plato’s world into three objects, you say that the Demiurge is basically God. But… he’s not. He’s a creator, but nothing more. He’s not omnipotent, and he’s not “good” except in the sense that he’s sterile and more like the forms than like us.

But you are wise, O Philip, not to defend Plato’s forms and his philosophy like Master Ahern tries to do. You focus on his place in the tradition of philosophy. Even I have to agree with you here. His elenchus, no doubt, has a significant place in philosophy. His theories of government, while far too idealistic to be of any value, began a conversation that has lasted to this day. But then you make this ridiculous claim that philosophy is nothing but footnotes to Plato. Please, back up your tenacity with, if not fact, at least some fabrication!

Finally, this bosh about the dream of wisdom and the fountain of truth. Philosophers should not be men mucking about in books and playing games in their heads so to acquire a vague, dreamy “wisdom” and the satisfaction of having the right opinion about everything under the sun. Rather, philosophers should look for answers to questions they deem important, and set about their task with as much determination and as little sentimentality as possible. Wisdom for wisdom’s sake is no wisdom at all. A true philosopher tries to discover who he is, what’s going on, and what ought to be done about it. Thus, philosophy is not a grand quest. Philosophy is a search for a grand quest.

A question that is, perhaps, a bit Devil’s advocate – why hymns, though? Scripture does mention “hymns” along with spiritual songs and psalms, but it doesn’t mention 4-part melodic hymnody in the sense that Western culture has developed. Compare how different the semi-liturgical hymn singing of Presbyterian and a lot of Anglican congregations with the completely liturgical Byzantine service. Hymns in the Western sense are sort of contrary to their idea of worship.

Some cardboard to chew on. :) (Ever since Socrates, everybody suspects you of asking questions you know the answer to. I certainly don’t know the answer to this. Trying to figure it out, though.)

I have one question. With regard to God’s loving even those in hell — doesn’t this contradict the literal reading of passages like Romans 1:18, where it speaks of the wrath of God against the sinfulness of men? How are we to understand this passage in relation to what you say in your post?

And if God saw it necessary to punish Christ instead of us for our sins, isn’t there only one sufficient reason for which he would do that: so that we could have communion once again with Him, and yet at the same time divine justice could be satisfied? Or is Christ’s death the means by which God does not have to punish sinners?

What the Psalms never are is sentimental. Let me draw the distinction (a poetic, rather Eliotic distinction) – sentimental poetry concentrates on the emotion; emotional poetry concentrates on the description or described.

In David’s big confession of sin, it’s not oriented around him at all: “Against You only have I sinned.” He makes it perfectly clear that he’s not the concentration. “What is man that Thou art mindful of him”, after all? Always cosmic, theistic significance.

…As apposed to “I know not where the road will lead, I follow day by day.” The concentration, the described, is yourself. Hope that makes a bit of sense. It also provides a more objective way of determining what Psalms are “good”, “OK”, and “bad”.

My family is in charge of most of the music for our church– we pick the hymns, print the worship guides, play the piano, lead most of the singing, and generally handle all musical issues (we don’t all do that together as a family, of course– my dad, an elder leads the singing, my mom and I play the piano at different times– but we are all very involved with the whole process) and so I have been blessed by being submerged constantly in good church music, and I have participated in differentiating between good church music, okay church music and bad church music. Man, it’s a hard job.

So just the other night I was trying to select hymns to play for an elder ordination service, and I had to choose between “Now May He Who From the Dead” http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/n/m/nmayhewf.htm
and “May the Mind of Christ My Savior” http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/a/maytmind.htm

It was a hard choice, because the first focused more on “us”– the corporal part of worship, and the second was more about “May Christ help me”… It was a really hard choice but each of the songs had merit– because while we were met together as a body, we WERE installing and ordaining an individual. The real clincher though, was the music. The first hymn had a really cheesy tune, and the second had a very beautiful one. The tune is just as important as the words, and it needs to fit with the words. But then I didn’t have to make a choice because I remembered that we could sing Psalm 117– which brings me to my real conclusion: If you sing the Psalms as a church, you will sing individually-oriented things.

anyway, good thoughts of yours, Mark.